Mental Wellness Podcast
A podcast dedicated to reframing the narrative on mental health by educating and create awareness on mental health conditions, their treatment and rehabilitation and to reduce mental health stigma in the society.
Mental Wellness Podcast
Stigma in mental health
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Mental health stigma is a pervasive issue. In Kenya, someone living with a mental illness is likely to be called crazy or (chizi - Swahili ). In this episode, our guest Dr Tahir Kadernani highlights the impact of stigma on mental health care and how it is a barrier to access to mental health treatment and rehabilitation.
Hi, welcome to another episode of the Mental Wellness Podcast. And today we're going to discuss an issue that is quite pervasive in our society. Globally, according to WHO Mental Health Report 2022, one in eight people worldwide live with a mental health condition. Anxiety and depression affects up to 700 million people globally. And of these, 90% are in low and middle income countries, and they do not get the support that they need. In our country, the Mental Health Task Force 2019 gave very damning statistics. Out of all outpatient visits, 25% are due to a mental health condition. Out of all inpatient admitted patients, 40% have a mental health condition. But it's common in our country to hear someone who's suffering from mental illness being called as either, Mendawazim, Crazy, Cheesy. These terms look polite when they say it, or rather, they look like very light terms. But to anyone who's living the mental health condition, to anyone who's taken care of someone who's living the mental health condition, and to anyone who's been affected directly, it's a significant barrier to seeking mental health care. I have a guest on the show, and the guest today is Dr. Tahir Kadenani, a psychiatrist, and also a good friend. I'll let him introduce himself. Hi, Doc.
SPEAKER_02Hi, hi, hi, Dr. My name's uh Dr. Tahir Kadanani. Um introduction to the public is as a psychiatrist, introduction to you and to the people around you is as a younger brother. Okay. Um I think we've come from far. And um it's a pleasure being here on this podcast. Um congratulations first and foremost on having this and doing this. It's um absolutely required. It's amazing that we're able to talk about mental health. It's creating a platform to break exactly what we want to discuss today. That's Stigma. Yeah. Um, it's cre it's it's creating that platform of doing this. So kudos to you and many, many congratulations to you. And uh may this uh go on to be very, very successful.
SPEAKER_00Okay, thank you very much. And thank you for gracing the invitation and taking time to actually come and uh talk to us about mental health stigma, basically also to educate the society around us and create more awareness so that we can improve mental health outcomes in the country. Yeah, I think we can start off. So, what exactly is stigma?
SPEAKER_02Stigma is um let's let's let's look at a definition and let's let's start by giving a definition to the word stigma because I think that's that's the start of uh this whole topic. So, stigma is having a negative mark or negative belief around uh a person, an institution or a community or uh person's attributes. So it's that element of having that negative thought process or negative feeling around that person. And it is not limited to just having a feeling, it is uh now vocalizing it and taking actions towards it. Okay. So stigma is basically having a negative mark towards a person, his abilities, his insecurities.
SPEAKER_00Okay. And then how so now stigma, this gentle stigma, definitely. Then we also have because we've had conditions like HIV and AIDS that also had their own stigma. Then now we are talking basically about mental health stigma. So I don't know, in your in your perspective as a psychiatrist, how do you think stigma is expressed in the Kenyan society, especially around mental health?
SPEAKER_02Okay, so I think in human nature, and in towards any any condition or any negative uh inclination towards something, which is basically what we're saying, stigma is we have um we have a certain way that humans react. One of them is prejudice, another one is discriminatory, right? Um so how it's pre how it's coming out in the Kenyan system is number one, people are afraid of employing, for example, someone with mental health. So there's prejudice there, right? Or they're discriminating people who have mental health. And they don't want to um associate with people with mental health, isn't it? So that is how it comes out. And and that's just basic human nature. It is not something it's it's it's not also right to come out and say, yes, it is something wrong, but that's how people, that's how we've been brought up. That's the society that we've been brought up in. Okay. So it's important to educate them on how to deal with rather than um just be very accusatory on their actions.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I and I think but I agree with you that um accusing, of course, people who are also not aware that it is actually stigma, because for the longest time possible, like for instance, um you know our in our setup in this part of the world, um, someone who's out of touch with reality, that is someone who's psychotic, who's seen walking around talking to themselves or even laughing to themselves, will be like, this guy has lost his head. And the such stamps can be said, or Mendoazim W you see. But then now beyond that, there is a fact that sometimes this person, when they are treated and they're okay and they start raising certain issues, like even a family setup, very easily to be dismissed that they're not okay mentally, you see. And so that's part of what uh the expression also now gets into.
SPEAKER_02I don't know what you I think that's what you call stereotyping, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because um when someone has something, you've put a you've put a mark on them and that's it, and that's how you continue seeing them. Precisely. There's no change in thought process of no, he's better. Or and I think that that that concept comes in from the fact that we've never looked at mental illness as part of general illness.
SPEAKER_00Thank you.
SPEAKER_02Because if someone has a bacterial infection, they're treated. See, I'm a porn.
SPEAKER_00Yes, yes, yes.
SPEAKER_02He goes back to work and then that's normal. Yeah. He's not going to be asked, you had pneumonia yesterday, why do you have a cold today? or any of those questions, isn't it? But when it comes to mental illness, it becomes uh a brand. You're branded.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and with that point, I think you just brought me to one thing that I've been doing quite quite often is um the look when you tell someone this is actually mental illness. They come to you, they have symptoms, they're struggling, you listen, and then you of course ask a few questions, and now you've got in the symptoms, class of the symptoms, and actually come up with a diagnosis. And you tell them it's a mental illness, and they look at you like, if it's a first time, you know, and if it's someone who has a can also looks at you like, so what I normally tell them is wait. Why is it that when you say it's a mental illness, I get this look. Now you educate and tell them the body has different organs. We have a brain, we have a heart, we have a kidney. So I'm like, when you get a heart condition, you'd say that person has a heart condition. When the kidneys are failing, you'd say it's kidney failure. But I'm like, this is the brain. The brain, just like the heart and the kidneys, gets illnesses. They can be structural. They can structural meaning it's a deformity in the brain, or maybe something has happened, and in the structure of the brain that leads to illness, it can be an infection. But then it can now when all these are not are not uh present, once you've taken for different tests, and you realize this is mental illness, people now look at it like it's not an illness, it's a different animal altogether, and that's why it's labeled differently, I think.
SPEAKER_02What you're saying just reminds me, um, just humor me. Um when we were in med school, yeah uh we were we used to study together. Yeah. Um, what was your thought process around psychiatrists?
SPEAKER_00Well, uh, I think what what was interesting in psychiatry was this excluded speciality, you know, right from undergraduate. And I think it's been propagated in society for so long. Um, if someone had asked me 20 years back if I'd be doing psychiatry, I told them perhaps yes, perhaps not, but not really something that I would have done. Even when I graduated first degree, I took time to actually think about psychiatry. It was the last thing in my mind. But then I eventually found my way and was like, I'm going to do psychiatry. And that's how I ended up being a psychiatrist. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So in my, in my in my whatever, I remember during med school and uh even before that, when when the thought of psychiatry came, it was always about to become a psychiatrist, you have to be mad, Kyasi. And it was the picture propagated by psychiatry. Society. But not only society, but I think I'll say our own colleagues had that whole element that they used to. A psychiatrist would come driving and old Mercedes-Benz, barely making it to the door of the hospital. And you would look and they would be dressed in a certain way, and there'd be a perception around them. They they created an aura or a perception around them. And it kind of influenced us, isn't it? Okay. Um, and so for me, that was the case until looking deeper into it and understanding what mental health is. And I think during my undergrad is where I found a liking for this.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_02And so that all of this is just a societal perception of what a psychiatrist is.
SPEAKER_01True.
SPEAKER_02And some people have played into that. The colleagues might not have been doing anything wrong. They might be living according to their own standards and according to, and they come out well dressed and all that. But because society has already created an image for you, that's the image you judge.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_02The people as well. And that's what creates that's basically how stigma also starts forming around these things.
SPEAKER_00Around the same component of stereotyping, there's the aspect of language and what the spoken word, the power of the spoken word. Like, for instance, when someone says, Ah, that guy is crazy. Ah, what is the impact and how does that now create propagate stigma?
SPEAKER_02That's how the public views you, and that creates an element of also self-awareness around it, isn't it? Utachekanaikidogo Lakini.
SPEAKER_00Deep down, you know, your heart. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Your hurt. Yeah. And if it is repeated a number of times, it becomes a norm. And then you start viewing yourself in that way as well, isn't it? And you start withdrawing, it creates more of a vicious cycle.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00And I I think in the clinical setup is something I've seen quite often. A patient comes and you ask them, What are we, what are you being treated for? And the patient breaks down. And when they break down, you let them, you ask them, okay, I I noticed this question made you quite emotional. Why would you and like, but I've been called Amwindwa Zimu most of my life or for most of what I've been experiencing. And you know, it's really heartbreaking to see that that is the impact of that word when said to someone, that repeatedly, as you say it over time, it gets into someone, and now they start looking at what they're struggling with and seeing themselves as deficient, as not someone who's fit to be in the society and actually live and work in the society.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. But you know, it's not only a word, right? It's also how uh these how very close people to them engage with them. Just you reminded me of this when when you're saying a patient, because we normally do collaborative history, isn't it?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02And you're talking to the parents and all of that. And at times when you talk to the patient, the patient says, But naambua, see na naambua you lazy money, nayo ni sifany, evo. They don't understand me. And and that's I think the very core of the the the word is they don't understand me. Those statements are what tell us um that how the how the conversations around this illness is happening in their home.
SPEAKER_00True. And no, no, no, that creates another thing that the immediate supportive environment becomes hostile to this patient and now contributes further to the propagation of the mental illness. So you start dealing with now what we call social cultural factors around the patient, and now becomes a biggest hindrance again to treatment. Yeah. So do we have different types of stigma?
SPEAKER_02Yes, we do.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_02And there's uh public stigma, yeah, then there's structural stigma, and then there's stigma that um involves the self. So public stigma is where we look at um public institutions or um public institutions which have their policies and they create uh an element of negativity around the person. So, for example, um not employing someone or creating a discriminative um element. So he's having a mental illness, he can uh we need to let him go. So stuff like that. But then you have the structural stigma or um societal stigma basically, where the society now starts judging you as a whole. Okay. Who you in him. Yes. Who you she um he is he's in depression. If you're gonna go near him with depression, you'll also get depression like it's an infectious disease. Okay, okay. Or uh he's having anxiety, it's it's going to pass to someone if you go close to him or something of that sort, you know? Okay. The society starts judging you.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_02Then you have the stigma that's associated with self. Where now when you look at yourself in the mirror, because of all of this that has happened, you fall into the trap of believing what is happening is true. That that uh mental health is wrong. It is being mentally mentally unhealthy is a choice, and you've taken the wrong choice. Okay. And you start judging yourself there. Okay, okay. So that is now when it comes and affects self.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Yeah, so I mean, across all these levels of of stigma, I think beyond the structural and the and and and what you call um the societal one, uh, there is the component of self-stigma. Most times, and I think you relate with me on this, you relate with this. Um, so someone you know, maybe just someone's come to you and they explain to you their symptoms and all that, and you're like, um, you know what you're expressing is actually depression, for instance. And it has affected your functionality. Basically, you can't go to work, socially, you've isolated yourself, you're withdrawn, and you need help. And the help means we need to treat you. And you're like, so I'll have to give you medicine and bam, the self-stigma starts. You want to give me drugs because I'm crazy? How do you relate to that?
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. I think whichever patients we get to see, the first thing you get, so the first thing you're like, I don't want medication. They come to you, and the first statement that comes across is I don't want medication. And you're like, we have not even addressed what your problem is. We we we don't know anything about your problem, but yeah, there's such a negative attitude towards uh psychiatric treatment and medications. And I I always tell them let us first address the issue and then we can create a plan together. I think um very importantly, with a lot of these patients, is we have to deal with their stigma. They're coming to us having fought off so much stigma, and all that they're worried about is if they go with medication, they're gonna be judged further.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So so that's that's now self-stigma. Of course, also as a result of the societal and public and the structural one. And so it becomes a hindrance to good treatment outcomes already from the start. And even when the patient accepts take medication, it's not, it's it's very common to come back second time, third time, and still ask you the same question over and over. How long can I be on the medication? Why should I be taking this medication? I'll be dependent on the medication. And and it's a very interesting concept because then now you start seeing that they've taken it because they had no other option. I mean, they accept they were struggling, and so now this is the only way out, and they start meeting medication and they're feeling better, and they're like the first thing is when am I getting it? When am I going to stop? You know, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Immediately, when do I stop it? Yeah, but isn't that that that's that's the fear that they have, isn't it? You're look at it from this perspective, yeah. Um mental health is still so unknown.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Mental health is still so unknown. Now imagine us as scientists and researchers, it's unknown to us. The person who is going through it, the first thing that comes to the head is, I'm the only one who has this. Okay. It is never like say when you have pneumonia and you think about oh, but the the first thing you'll tell yourself is there's an outbreak. Yeah? It might not be true, but that's how you convince yourself there's an outbreak. So that's why I'm getting this. Yeah, isn't it? Yeah, true. But here, the first thing that they'll tell themselves is I'm the only one. Now, already you've created an element whereby there is judgment from yourself, which you say it's self-stigma. And because you're judging yourself, even if no one else is judging you, there's already a thought that you're being judged.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Now it is that fear that is causing them to follow up with these questions of when will I get off? How will I get off? I the the all all the stories around these meds is they are highly addictive, they have so many side effects. A lot of times the patients may not have side effects, but they they've read all this on Google and come and told you how many times have you faced this? They've read on Google and come and told you, this is a side effect. I'm having this, this, this, this is this. And you have to deal with it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So so that's something I've actually come across. It's it's I mean, for all of us, it it's a it's a it's a common thing about side effects and always go back. I think one of the things I normally tell my patients is, you know, um, as a doctor, I do acknowledge that all these medications have side effects, but I have more knowledge than you. Because if you if you read on the internet, you're just reading on the side effects. But I know that if you mention a specific side effect, maybe 5-10% of the population gets that side effect. And you read the side effects and you'll think it's all of them, but you could actually maybe get one or none at all. Because bodies also respond differently to medication. I think that's that's something that now is a constant back and forth between us and the patient.
SPEAKER_02You know the best thing is what? Yeah, how they Google. Can cough be a side effect of this drug? Yeah, and and AI is going to tell them and everything is going to happen. Yes, it can. Because of the of the boxes that that that's written there, that this drug can have all these side effects. So that's how they they they Google. Okay. So it's like telling them with panad, I try I give them the example of Panadol. I'm like, how often do you take Panol? They're like, Paradox is I'm like, have you ever read the box to see what's potential side effects can be on Parado? Yeah. And they go like, no. I'm like, you should. Yeah. Because if you're gonna if you're gonna Google the side effects, Panadol can give you the similar side effects as many other drugs.
SPEAKER_00But I think because our medication one is medication that is highly controlled. You cannot go over the counter and get this medication. You need a prescription that is stamped for you to get the medication. So as you rightfully said previously, when you're talking about the aura created by the psychiatrist uh coming in is the same around the medication. I think that aura now. It comes to the drugs as well. This class of drugs, basically. Yeah, yeah. So there's there's that component of it, yeah. Um so just just to just to even make take it further, how is all this stigma now propagated if we are to look at it um apart from the self-stigma, like in the societies, in workplaces, in families, in the community, how is it commonly propagated?
SPEAKER_02So, one, I think um something that we look at is media. Mm-hmm. Um so when when uh you have media uh media doing that to certain cases and uh propagating it as because of mental health issues, this XYZ happened, and you know you create um a whole aura around it. Um number two, cultural beliefs.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I think that's the biggest one because in it's it's our society. What, we have what, 42 communities in Kenya?
SPEAKER_00I think at 45 currently.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, 44, 45. Yeah. And all of them have their own cultural beliefs and thought processes around um different things, especially mental health. Um, right? Um, if you go to towards religion, and it's not saying, um, I think as um it's important for us to hear just mention that we're not saying religion is wrong or there's not practices around the religion that would affect, or wagangas are not doing what they're doing, what they're supposed to do, but there's an element of confusing what can happen there with mental illnesses. So um those two would be some of the ways of, you know, propagation of uh stigma.
SPEAKER_00I think on the religion one is it's actually very interesting because um when these symptoms present, the first call for most of the religions is either the church, the mosque, or in other traditions and other religions. It's a spiritual thing. It's a spiritual thing. Yeah. So and I think that the thing that needs to come out, and I think from what we do is that spirituality has its own protective factor in mental illnesses because it creates a sense of community and sense of social connectedness. Absolutely. But in the sense that people resort to explain the symptoms that they are seeing in this person that are clearly mental illnesses to either being bewitched, to possession. And so we took them to the church or to the mosque to for prayers, that they now they're exercised. I think that's a common thing. And I know both you and I and many other psychiatrists in the country have seen a patient who they've gone all the way through the spiritual way and finally decided, let's come to see a doctor so that we can get maybe see if we get some help, you know.
SPEAKER_02But you see, um that is where I think we need to bridge the gap. Because we as psychiatrists need to reach out to these leaders. These religious leaders, and and be able to have conversation with our mosques, our nearby mosques, uh, our community centers, because at the end of the day, it is this patient who is suffering. They have belief in prayers, and that's a very important part of the society and part of the of their be of their culture and thought process. We need to be able to incorporate that bit. We need to be able to incorporate that bit and also at that time seek the right professional help. It can be a two-pronged fork. It does not have to be either this or that. And this is where we fall, this is the trap a lot of religious leaders fall into. I have had many cases where someone is undergoing depression and they believe that their faith will heal them. We have not put them on any medication, but we have just tried to do therapy with them, psychotherapy, and reinforce their belief in their religion, and it has worked because their strength in their faith is that strong. So we're not fighting them, but that thought process has to come out to those leaders. Religious leaders at times feel that we as scientists or psychiatrists are fighting them in terms of what is happening.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so I like the point on bridging the gap, and I think there's already in our country there's significant steps being made. I think just recently we saw where one of the major mental health institutions in the country um launched a mental healthness self-work book with with uh with the with the clergy. And I think that's a very, very, very bold step. And to try and bridge that gap and create that integration that you know what we are all on the same side, you tend to become the first call because social uh socially and culturally people believe it's those other causes as opposed to medical illnesses. And then at some point you now come to us. And so I think that's that's a that's a big step in the country already. Uh, very, very commendable. I think now the onus is on all of us in this space of mental health as practitioners to now take it up and now spread that across all the religions. All the religions, I think. So that's where we have those that back. And then the other thing is actually map out communities and then relationship with the communities that then now become our like the pathway in which we get to the community. I mean, there's a lot of work when it comes to if I just listening to you, I was like, there's a lot that we need to do beyond the clinical setup. Because the clinical setup is seated somewhere, just coming in. Of course, there are many. We there are quite a number of cases, but then I think at some point we have to also now what we could the community psychiatric component.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_00Actively now start engaging communities on that tool.
SPEAKER_02And exactly as you put it, the influential, I I understand we cannot reach everyone, but we can engage the influential people. Um it's it's something that we in Mathare Um at MNTRH, we are we've been we've been talking about and trying to take active steps towards, meaning um trying to reach the important people in those communities so that they start having a knowledge around mental health and mental illnesses, and then they can help us. Um from a selfish perspective, it is because of trying to uh decongest an already full hospital.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_02But in the bigger picture, it is all about educating that community about mental illness.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's true. And I think Madara is the biggest public um facility mental health facility in the country in East and Central Africa. East and Central Africa, you see. And so just mentioning Madara is something that already now. It's a fear factor. Precisely. I mean, most people will tell you, so you got that point that you had to go to Madara. I mean, you'd also get a patient who's like, I was so bad I was taking. So it's it's the picture created out there is that by the time you get there, boss, you're gonna be able to get it. Yeah, you were really sick. And I think now with these such conversations, and and I think the hospital has already taken ready bold steps. The hospital is changing.
SPEAKER_02They have started creating um, we've we've started working on a public image, on um social media, on reaching out to communities, being able to talk to communities. For for personal, for as a personal initiative, I when I was in the wood, I invited the families, we had a small mini conference with them about their conditions, just so that we start educating these communities on how to deal with.
SPEAKER_00Okay. So one one thing about mental illnesses is that it causes what we call social occupational dysfunction. And occupational here meaning if someone is already of adult age and they're working, then it means occupation is they're working. If someone is still in college or school that is primary, secondary, they're going to school. And so that's part of the, that's actually their occupation. So stigma around the workplace.
SPEAKER_02It's massive.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think I'd like to hear what you like to say about that.
SPEAKER_02It's it's it's massive. Um, how many times have you got a patient coming to you? And when you're saying you have to write a sick-off, they say, do not mention that we've come for mental health issues. Um, please don't mention we've come for mental health issues. Write something else uh on their sick-offs or anything of that sort. And um, because the perception is that if you have a mental health condition, um very soon you're gonna be let off. Okay. You you can get let off. So I think it's a it's it's a big, big thing that needs to change. Um and that's where um myself, I work as a coach. I work as a performance coach. And the aim around this is to work with, and I've been working with uh company executives and directors and HRs in trying to show them that mental health is a key component in how people perform. Uh burnout is real. Yeah. Chronic fatigue is real. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And not everyone, just because they say they have a mental health issue is schizophrenia bipolar and all of that. And even those that are on schizophrenia bipolar, if they're on the right medication, they're very able to work and perform. So why should we then how can we change the mindset towards them? What can we do to help them is is is what uh performance is then all about. Yeah. So how do you think we can reduce the stigma in the society? Reducing the stigma in the society, this this is number one, being able to talk about it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Freely talk about it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Uh number two, what we already said, engaging the community. Being able to engage the community um from a profession as a profession. Yeah. Um and also I think as a government, they have uh the the Mental Health Act, which was revised in 2022, is doing a lot of good work around uh the element of stigma, the fact that it actually entrenches. It integrated general health and mental health as one. Yeah, yeah. And that's a big step towards bridging the stigma. So you can go to a facility and uh any facility in Kenya and be looked at in terms of your mental health as well.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Yeah, and I think beyond that um is to also get people who are confident and comfortable talking about their struggles with mental illnesses out there because then now it makes people actually accept that.
SPEAKER_02Lived experience.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, lived experiences is one thing that I think we also need to work on to make sure people people get to accept that it's a normal condition. It's it's okay. It's just like any other illness. Now no one chooses illness in in this world. Illnesses just come to us, you know, and you don't know where you're going to be sick, what you're gonna be sick with, and that's that's part of part of part of life, yeah?
SPEAKER_02Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and and so I think what is your message for people living with mental illnesses, for caregivers, and for the general public when it comes to stigma?
SPEAKER_02For those living with mental illnesses, you're not alone. Yeah. Like we said, one in every four surfaces from a mental illness in Kenya. You're not alone. Look at look at when you look at your family, you're four, one is going to have it. And you look at eight, you'll be two. Yeah. Those are the statistics. Yeah. Um, and realizing you're not alone means that you're able to, you, you, you're able to talk to someone about it. Okay. Isn't it? Being able to, for the caregivers, again, seek help, talk. Don't feel that you're the only one uh living this life.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um make time for yourself. Make uh as a caregiver, make sure you're giving yourself priority. You cannot give when your cup is not full, when your cup is empty. Yeah. So make sure you're doing uh you're practicing general good health for yourself in terms of physical and mental.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_02Um and for the society, I think keep engaging in talks around this from um community level to a national level. We we I think as a country, we're doing a lot on it. Uh having these conferences around mental health and celebrating mental health day and all of that. So we're doing a lot on it, but still there's space for more. So we need to we need to keep pushing, pushing, we need to push those barriers a lot more.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. And and I think that's a success, I totally agree with you that there's a lot to be done when it comes to handling stigma in the society. Um, and that to just improve uh health-seeking behavior around mental health conditions, and in regards to that, also now improve treatment outcomes and reduce the parent of mental illnesses in the country. So, just to conclude, um, what do you think we can do to prevent prevention? Yeah, of stigma.
SPEAKER_02Prevention of stigma is again, we'll repeat the same things. Talk, talk, talk.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Let's talk, let's talk mental health. Let's talk, let's make it a common topic.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I think parents should talk to their children about it, bring it up in schools, have a subject on psychology and mental health in schools. From the time they enter secondary school, from one, from two, should be someplace where they're able to understand this.
SPEAKER_00And and I I agree with you on the on the on the school factor, because 50 to 75% of mental illnesses actually begin in that adolescent period. Absolutely. And so they start struggling, of course, with adolescence, the biology that happens, the neuroplasticity in the brain, how the brain changes that are happening, biological changes, and now mental illnesses also set in. And so oftentimes you'd see parents struggling with what's happening with my child. You know, there's this behavior I've noticed, there's this, and then they come, you do an assessment, you have everything, and then now. So I think yeah, I agree with you that we need to uh target schools and workplaces. And workplaces, yeah.
SPEAKER_02I think uh, if I'm not mistaken, in the the the Kenyan law now requires the Mental Health Act 2022, actually.
SPEAKER_00It captured all that, yeah. In the workplace. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Schools is still uh you still have a gap because not every school in Kenya has a counselor.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02So that's something that we should look forward to. Yeah, yeah, I agree. Every school in Kenya should have a practicing psychologist or a counselor to be able to talk about mental health.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Yeah. So it's it's been a great discussion. Uh having and thanks for coming to the show and shedding more light on stigma in mental health care. And I think um such discussions are discussions that we look forward to. We hope to having you back on the show to discuss further on any other mental health conditional, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Appreciate this, Asante Sana, and uh may this go on to be the channel which helps break the stigma.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so of course, that was the whole objective that we'd improve the mental health literacy levels in the country, educate and create awareness, and also reduce the stigma. And I do hope that we'll actually be able to do something stepwise, slow by slow, but we get there.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. I think uh this is brilliant. Yeah, brilliant work, Tari. Thank you, thank you very much.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so this has been another episode of the mental wellness podcast. Today we discussed about mental health stigma. It's been quite an insightful um discussion. I do believe that you have learned something about stigma and how it's propagated in the society and how we can actually prevent stigma in the society. I also do believe that it has opened your minds and opened your thought process around how not to propagate stigma in the society. We look forward to further discussions on this and even unpacking mental health illnesses in other shows. It's been very insightful, and thank you, Dr. Tahir Kadanani, for actually gracing the podcast and sharing your knowledge and expertise on this. Don't forget to like, subscribe, and share this. The link is in the bio. You can follow us for more insightful discussions on mental wellness in the country.
